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A tale of 2 Hondas
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The ferret Offline
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Ohio
Posts: 31,282
Joined: Apr 2013
Post: #1
A tale of 2 Hondas
A lot of people talk about buying and riding a motorcycle to save some money over driving a car. I bought (2) new 2006 Hondas. An ST 1300 motorcycle and a Civic 2 door coupe. Both were about the same price retail, about $16,000. Both had 4 cyl engines with similar horsepower (around 120 hp). Both had manual 5 speed transmissions. Both revved to about the same rpm redline (8.5K) and actually both got very similar mileages ...38 for the car and 45 for the bike.

I sold the Civic after putting 205,000 miles on it to a friend who wanted it, for $3500. Still riding the ST. (wonder what a motorcycle with 205,000 miles on it would be worth, or if you could even sell it lol)

During the years I owned the Civic I had 52 oil and filter changes, put 2 sets of tires on it (Michelins), 1 set of front brakes, 2 air filters, 1 cabin filter, 1 set of spark plugs and 3 sets of wiper blades, and had the A.C. refrigerant added to once. No mechanical issues at all, it was a great car. Still on the original clutch, rear brakes, exhaust and battery when I sold it. My friend traded it in on a new Honda SUV after 2 years. He told me he hadn't had any issues, and that it had been a great car for him as well, although he did replace the rear brakes.

The other day I picked up the ST from yet another service at the dealership. At 83,000 miles it has had 21 oil and filter changes (I do the oil and filter changes and rear end oil, dealers do the rest), I'm on my 4th air cleaner, my 4th set of spark plugs, had 1 valve inspection, on 5th set of front brakes, 5th set of rear brakes, 8th front tire (Michelins), 10th rear tire (Michelins), 4th set of fluids in the clutch and brakes, on my 4th coolant change and my 3rd battery. The only mechanical problem I have had is a stuck thermostat at 34,000 miles (requiring one of the coolant changes) and a mechanical seal in the water pump that was leaking at around 60,000 miles (requiring another of the coolant changes). It has always brought me home. I'm hoping to ride it to 100,000 miles and that's going to require another set of front and rear brakes, one more front tire and 2 more rear tires. It's been a great bike.

But economical? Not hardly ..at least compared to the Civic. Plus in the Civic I had air bags and crash protection, a heater in winter, an air conditioner in summer, didn't get wet when it rained, could go in the snow, could take 3 people with me and had a lot more storage. Maybe that's why a motorcycle is such a hard sell to people who are not born motorcyclists. For a young guy with a wife and small kids and a limited income, a motorcycle is not a necessity but an extravagance, and certainly not economical. They just need too much repair, too often. Maybe buying a small used bike would be fairly economical? Say an air cooled 250 cc with single disc brakes? But riding one of those loses it's appeal quickly especially if you have any freeway commute. I think this is what manufacturers are dealing with. How do they sell motorcycles to millennials who don't want to endure cold or wet or hot or inconvenience? Would millennials rather have a motorcycle or a Kia Soul?

BTW I didn't buy the ST for economy or the convenience, I bought it because it's fun to ride. The ferret I bought the Civic for the economy and convenience. Wink

.
Defender of the Realm
2014 DLX (the pleasure horse)
2021 NC750X DCT (Angry Bird)
01-15-2017 08:12 AM
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Rocky Offline
Been There

Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 3,397
Joined: Apr 2014
Post: #2
RE: A tale of 2 Hondas
Interesting observations Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

Still rockin', rollin', and ridin' after all these years
'67 BSA 441 VR, '70 Triumph Tiger 100, '02 Honda CB900F, '06 Triumph T100 Bonneville, '14 Honda CB1100A
01-15-2017 08:27 AM
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Capo Offline
High Mileage

Sea Girt, New Jersey USA
Posts: 1,210
Joined: Sep 2013
Post: #3
A tale of 2 Hondas
The only places in the US where, broadly, a motorbike can replace a car, and bring economic as well as convenience benefits, are with single adults (or those with abiding pillion partners) in major cities. Parking, insurance, threading traffic, etc, can tilt towards a bike vs a car. It's why there are more bikes than you'd think in NYC.

Postwar Europe saw the motorbike with sidecar as family transport, until small, cheap, somewhat reliable cars became available. And standards of living and consumer expectations rose.

Motorcycles are destined to be passion and hobby devices for the vast majority of consumers in the developed world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No more CB, but a GB.
Triumphs and Ducatis.
A Norton, MV, and Morini 175.
Probably others.
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2017 08:49 AM by Capo.)
01-15-2017 08:48 AM
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The ferret Offline
Forum Moderator

Ohio
Posts: 31,282
Joined: Apr 2013
Post: #4
RE: A tale of 2 Hondas
Capo I agree. So what kind of motorcycle do the mfg's have to make to attract that customer into the showrooms?

.
Defender of the Realm
2014 DLX (the pleasure horse)
2021 NC750X DCT (Angry Bird)
01-15-2017 08:52 AM
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Rboe Offline
Been There

Phx, AZ
Posts: 3,228
Joined: Jun 2013
Post: #5
RE: A tale of 2 Hondas
IF a young family or young person was looking for an inexpensive transportation machine the ST would not be on the list. When I was in that position I bought a used TS125. I think I paid $300.

That said, I think your premise that choosing a car makes more sense is still valid. When I bought the bike I was living in Duluth Minnesota so when winter came I eventually bought a Ford Pinto (and I'll cut the story short there as that is another tale all together!). I did take the bus for much of my commuting but the bus still had its' limits and naturally the bike had even more. Most health related. Smile

But a cheap used econo car is hard to beat. You can carry two weeks worth of groceries, a date (even double date in most cars), safer, you can listen to your tunes - easily, and the critical heat and A/C are not to be under estimated.

With four wheels your car won't take naps. Especially in front of all your friends.

Meeting the nicest people on a Honda has morphed and I'll venture to say that people see bikers as your rebel types - and not in the good rebel may the force be with you type either. So motorcycles as a whole needs some image polishing to attract more main stream types (good for the industry, maybe not so good for us - I kinda like being a bit outside the mainstream. At least when I'm on the Guzzi. Big Grin

The cheapest way to do this image overhaul? Make a block buster movie (aka Star Wars, Gone with the Wind, Dirty Harry - especially Dirty Harry) where the hero/heroine ride mid sized motorcycles. E.g. the CB500. You know how many Smith & Wesson Model 29's in 44 magnum were sold because of Dirty Harry? Or how many banjo's were sold because of Deliverance? Our society is lead by the nose by the entertainment industry. We need our version of Transformers to sell bikes (but please dear gawd, better looking bikes than transformers!).

Like so many other solutions. It's easier said than done. Undecided

2013 Honda CB1100 Red
2014 Honda CB1100 Black
2008 Honda XR650L
01-15-2017 10:03 AM
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Rolls Offline
High Mileage

Belmont, CA
Posts: 971
Joined: Jun 2013
Post: #6
RE: A tale of 2 Hondas
Great data, ferret! Excellent and relevant comparison.

When first taken by the siren song of the CB1100, I tried hard to justify it in every way possible, including economically. Why should I haul this heavy, 18-20mpg 7-passenger Sienna minivan around when an admittedly small but increasing fraction of my driving did not require me to haul my 3 high school kids around?

Surely, a 50 mpg motorcycle was the right answer... conveniently just the one I'd been unable to get out of my mind for several months.

I quickly threw a simple spreadsheet together including the most obvious line items: Gas, insurance, oil, tires, etc., and ran them against miles driven and possible increases in gas prices.

Alas, regardless of the cost aspects I added to my spreadsheet, or how many minivan miles I swapped out for thrifty moto miles, my exercise merely forced me to acknowledge that short of a tripling of gas prices or a CB1100 mysteriously rapidly appreciating in value, or some equally absurd scenario, economically, I could only prove that I indeed really wanted this beautiful new motorcycle. My spreadsheet and its financial implications would simply not be an ally in this adventure. My heart and I would be doing this one on our own.

After 33,000 miles, I'm happier with my CB1100 now than the day I bought it, but it's not because it's a big money saver.
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2017 01:24 PM by Rolls.)
01-15-2017 01:23 PM
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Cormanus Offline
Moderator

Queensland, Australia
Posts: 20,660
Joined: Dec 2013
Post: #7
RE: A tale of 2 Hondas
You simply wouldn't buy a large capacity motorcycle to save money, would you? You'd buy a smaller one and then you would save on petrol.

But you'd probably be a motorcycle tragic or you'd be single, have a modest income that meant a car was out of the question and really want the independence owning a motor vehicle gives you. The minute a partner or family sailed over the horizon, you'd be looking for a small, economical used car and the bike'd be a goner.

At one period in my life, when my children were young and I lived in a small city with not very good public transport, I was just able to afford a second vehicle to commute. So I bought a Honda C90 scooter which cost next to nothing and gave me 105 mpg. But it was scary on a windy day and, when I could afford it, and given a car park at work, I replaced it with a cheap second hand Toyota Corona. It was dry and had a heater too.

I have three sons and my wife has two daughters. Only two of them own cars: one with a young family; the other for business reasons. Of the others, one has no form of drivers' licence; another lives in the city and walks everywhere or uses public transport. The cost of using one to commute is prohibitive (mostly parking costs). So, if he really needs a car, he rents one. The final one also lives in the city, has a young family and chooses not to add the cost of motor vehicle ownership to the already stretched budget.

I've not done any surveys, but, as I trundle around the countryside, I see plenty of young people on motorcycles. There are lots of 300-600 cc bikes about the joint. As I've posted elsewhere, motorcycle sales in Australia were up in 2016 and the number of smaller capacity bikes being sold in a market where there are constraints on what new riders can ride leads me to suspect it's mostly young people buying bikes.

I'm not sure many of the basics have changed. Owning a motorcycle was always a minority activity. Some did it, but most opted for a car.
01-15-2017 01:54 PM
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Capo Offline
High Mileage

Sea Girt, New Jersey USA
Posts: 1,210
Joined: Sep 2013
Post: #8
A tale of 2 Hondas
(01-15-2017 08:52 AM)The ferret Wrote:  Capo I agree. So what kind of motorcycle do the mfg's have to make to attract that customer into the showrooms?


I don't know. Im not sure it's that simple. There has to be some sort of cultural spark, or generational turn towards bikes. I don't think it's the lack of choice or styles in motorcycles. Probably the $139/ month car lease is the biggest obstacle to the bike market growing or bikes becoming transportation devices again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No more CB, but a GB.
Triumphs and Ducatis.
A Norton, MV, and Morini 175.
Probably others.
01-15-2017 02:26 PM
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Stichill Offline
Road Warrior

Northern Kentucky, USA
Posts: 2,353
Joined: Oct 2014
Post: #9
RE: A tale of 2 Hondas
I didn't fully realize, until I started riding, just how expensive it is to own and ride a motorcycle...even though I started on a 250cc bike. You can't just look at the cost of the bike. The riding gear is a major investment, as is the maintenance that ferret documents.

The younger generation doesn't look at vehicles the way their predecessors did...as coveted escape machines. Escape from Mom and Dad, escape from school, escape from the boredom of wherever you are by going somewhere else. Young people today do their escaping and traveling online, virtually. They don't get bored, because they have an infinite ocean of interest and entertainment literally at their fingertips.

For older generations, cars and motorcycles represented freedom. The kind of vehicle we owned said something about our outlook on life and how we viewed ourselves. Young people just don't look to transportation as something that defines them.

I'm starting to interact with a lot of young people in the workplace. It's hard to get used to their flat affect, lack of eye contact, lack of apparent interest in anything, lack of joyous life-energy. When my friends and I were that age, we were like exuberant puppies! We were always ready to romp and play. I think for many of these young people, real life is somehow gray and drab to them. They'd rather live in their virtual online life.

Not all of them are like this of course. But enough of them act like lobotomized digital zombies that it's worrisome.

2012 Honda CBR250RA Candy Ruby Red/Silver
01-15-2017 03:19 PM
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DaSwami Offline
Running Like a Top

Northwest Montana (again!)
Posts: 467
Joined: Jun 2015
Post: #10
RE: A tale of 2 Hondas
Ferret,

While I admire your detail and recordkeeping, you do seem to suffer a bit from some form of OCD. Jeez Louis, I've never seen anything like that. I mean I keep all my receipts, but I don't exactly LOOK at them.

Stichill,

Life seems gray and drab to the millennials BECAUSE of their virtual online lives they have lived since they were little. Just a sea of digital emptiness and overloaded stimulation. I disagree, I think what's at their fingertips is very boring but they don't know what else to do.
01-15-2017 03:57 PM
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