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Air-Cooling Technology vs Euro4 (Bennetts)
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EmptySea Offline
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Chicagoland, USA
Posts: 4,349
Joined: Jun 2013
Post: #11
RE: Air-Cooling Technology vs Euro4 (Bennetts)
As the article says, manufacturers will have to have compelling reasons to develop air-cooled power plants in a Euro5 environment. I just don't see any compelling reasons. I don't even see very many non-compelling reasons. Honda and, I assume BMW and Yamaha, developed air-cooled motors for nostalgic reasons. W/R asked about performance and I agree with others that Honda could have increased HP on their air-cooled motor if it has wanted to, but I don't know how much more HP BMW could have squeezed out of their R9T motor. Liquid cooling provides temperature consistency that can never be there with air cooling and with that temperature control comes the ability to increase the HP in that power plant. Of course, even if the HP problem could be easily solved, the emissions problems seem not to be. Can they be solved? Probably, but at what cost? Honda may try to build a Euro5-compliant air-cooled motor, but that's because Honda has a history of trying to prove naysayers wrong. Beyond that though, liquid-cooled motors are more efficient, better performing, and arguably less expensive to engineer and build. So that is what they will build.

MTC


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W/R Offline
1st Service Completed

New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 179
Joined: May 2017
Post: #12
RE: Air-Cooling Technology vs Euro4 (Bennetts)
(Yesterday 09:43 AM)Ulvetanna Wrote:  
(01-15-2018 11:49 AM)W/R Wrote:  So how does BMW coax 125hp on an air cooled motor but the CB1100 is sub 90hp?

Is it because of the design - 2 cylinders both hanging out in the breeze as opposed to a tightly packed I4?
First, design. Tolerances between components must be very exact to ensure proper sealing, and proper heat transfer, for the pistons, cylinders, and valve train.

Second, materials. The materials must be able to withstand higher heat and pressure for longer periods of time.

Last, intent. If Honda or any other marque wanted to get 125 HP out of an air-cooled I4, they'd be doing it. The CB1100 is ~1140cc, the old BMW R1150 was 1130 cc. They both make about 85 HP (crankshaft, of course).

When BMW went to the R1200GS, the power increased to 109 HP at the crank, with 1170cc's, hardly any more displacement than the CB1100.

The latest R1200R Roadster makes 125 HP at the crank from the same 1170 cc's. And that's a twin. I4's can usually make more HP because they can spin much faster. Not so the CB1100, its redline is very low, really about the same as the BMW's.

Cooling isn't an issue, there is plenty of airflow over the front of an inline four.

So it really comes down to intent, since Honda certainly have the technical resources to build an 1100 cc I4 producing 120 HP.

The final question is why don't they? Probably because air-cooled bikes making that kind of heat and power still present durability and reliability issues that are very easily resolved by introducing liquid-cooling into the design.

I was going to sit back and eat popcorn but the intelligent and thoughtful questions are just too hard to resist. And I was planning on cutting back on my screen time. Undecided

Thanks for the answer Ulvetanna.

So it is much like the concept for Harleys (my main frame of reference for motorcycles), the more you increase the power the greater chance of failure you have. I am speaking of Twin Cam motors, not the newer ones although I suspect it is the same.

Does that mean that higher powered air cooled BMWs are inherently less reliable than the CB1100?

The R1200R was on my very short list before buying my CB1100 but I really dislike the BMW dealer here.

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peterbaron Offline
1st Service Completed

Brampton, ON, Canada, '13 CB1100A
Posts: 137
Joined: Jan 2016
Post: #13
RE: Air-Cooling Technology vs Euro4 (Bennetts)
If customer appetite for air cooled engine is there , backed by money they are WILLING to spend and pay higher price for a new, 120 HP engine, I am more then certain Honda can do it... Sure they'll check the market prior development...
Said that, Honda should get pre-payment for their new 120 HP engine CB, and I would like to wait and see how many complaints they would get like..."why so expensive"...why so powerful engine for baby boomers'..."I do not like this"..."other manufactures did better".."why so heavy bike".."for this price, I should not have any vibration at 220 km/h at all"......and so on....people always complain..Sad
I would buy it.

pb
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 01:07 PM by peterbaron.)
Yesterday 01:06 PM
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EmptySea Offline
Been There

Chicagoland, USA
Posts: 4,349
Joined: Jun 2013
Post: #14
RE: Air-Cooling Technology vs Euro4 (Bennetts)
(01-15-2018 11:49 AM)W/R Wrote:  Thanks for the answer Ulvetanna.

So it is much like the concept for Harleys (my main frame of reference for motorcycles), the more you increase the power the greater chance of failure you have. I am speaking of Twin Cam motors, not the newer ones although I suspect it is the same.

Does that mean that higher powered air cooled BMWs are inherently less reliable than the CB1100?

The R1200R was on my very short list before buying my CB1100 but I really dislike the BMW dealer here.

It does not mean that higher powered air-cooled BMWs are inherently less reliable than the CB1100. The reliability aspect could be overcome by engineering. I think it means that higher powered, air-cooled BMWs are inherently more expensive because of the increased costs in engineering and manufacturing. I'm not sure that one could prove that, though, since the cost of the motorcycle is related to more than just the cost of building the motor.

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LongRanger Offline
Road Warrior

Evergreen, CO
Posts: 1,817
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Post: #15
RE: Air-Cooling Technology vs Euro4 (Bennetts)
These 125 hp BMW boxer engines you're talking about are liquid cooled (much to the chagrin of BMW loyalists). I'm talking about the engines in the R/RS/RT/GS, not the RNineT -- those are air- and oil-cooled.

"Happiness makes up in height for what it lacks in length." - Robert Frost
'14 Honda CB1100 DLX #000094
'13 BMW F800GT
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(This post was last modified: Yesterday 02:01 PM by LongRanger.)
Yesterday 02:00 PM
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Ulvetanna Away
High Mileage

USA
Posts: 1,422
Joined: Apr 2016
Post: #16
RE: Air-Cooling Technology vs Euro4 (Bennetts)
(Yesterday 02:00 PM)LongRanger Wrote:  These 125 hp BMW boxer engines you're talking about are liquid cooled (much to the chagrin of BMW loyalists). I'm talking about the engines in the R/RS/RT/GS, not the RNineT -- those are air- and oil-cooled.
Sorry...my bad.

I got my Boxers confused.

But the point is no less valid. The new RNineT makes 110 HP at the crankshaft from an air-cooled engine.

2013 CB1100 Standard. July 2013 to December 2016, 10,500 miles. Low bars, Ikon shocks. Gone to a good home, I hope.Thumbs Up
Yesterday 02:17 PM
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EmptySea Offline
Been There

Chicagoland, USA
Posts: 4,349
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Post: #17
RE: Air-Cooling Technology vs Euro4 (Bennetts)
So... this is maybe a little off topic, but let's assume that Euro5 went into effect in 2019 and let's further assume that Honda could not make an air-cooled 1100cc in-line 4 that would pass the emission standards, would you be interested in a 2019 CB1100 which retained a retro-Honda look, but with the addition of a radiator up front?

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Flynrider Offline
Road Warrior

Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,573
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Post: #18
RE: Air-Cooling Technology vs Euro4 (Bennetts)
I would. I think I've stated before that I don't consider myself a retro purist (hence my interest in the Z900RS). I've also been a longtime fan of the unobtainable (and liquid cooled) CB1300. I like standard inline 4 bikes.

Phoenix, AZ
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LongRanger Offline
Road Warrior

Evergreen, CO
Posts: 1,817
Joined: Aug 2015
Post: #19
RE: Air-Cooling Technology vs Euro4 (Bennetts)
It's already got one (oil cooler). A second one might be okay as long as it was packaged well and the engine retained its fins. Otherwise, no, not for me, not for this style of motorbike.

"Happiness makes up in height for what it lacks in length." - Robert Frost
'14 Honda CB1100 DLX #000094
'13 BMW F800GT
'06 Ducati Monster 620
'98 BMW K1200RS
Yesterday 08:50 PM
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EmptySea Offline
Been There

Chicagoland, USA
Posts: 4,349
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Post: #20
RE: Air-Cooling Technology vs Euro4 (Bennetts)
(Yesterday 08:45 PM)Flynrider Wrote:  I would. I think I've stated before that I don't consider myself a retro purist (hence my interest in the Z900RS). I've also been a longtime fan of the unobtainable (and liquid cooled) CB1300. I like standard inline 4 bikes.

CB1300 = the only bike for which I would trade my CB1100

(Yesterday 08:50 PM)LongRanger Wrote:  It's already got one (oil cooler). A second one might be okay as long as it was packaged well and the engine retained its fins. Otherwise, no, not for me, not for this style of motorbike.

Fins are key for me, too. Maybe not a deal breaker, but close.

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(This post was last modified: Yesterday 09:59 PM by EmptySea.)
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