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tps evaluating for ii issues
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SportsterDoc Offline
High Mileage

New Mexico
Posts: 1,447
Joined: Nov 2017
Post: #41
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues
Dave-Have you checked that the TPS connector contacts are fully seated in the connector insulator?

Automotive and motorcycle connectors typically have connectors crimped (or soldered) to wires, which are pushed into the connector insulator from the rear. The contact has one or two clips/prongs/barbs which snap into a retention feature of each cavity.

During the assembly process, if each wire/contact is not fully pushed into each cavity, the contact "floats", removing pressure on the mating surfaces.

This can be discovered by (a) pulling on a wire and finding the contact is pulled out or (b) pushing on a wire and hearing a snap/pop as the clip seats.

An unseated contact can cause repeat intermittent issues.

23 Guzzi V7 SE 23 Yam XT250
18 Yam Bolt 22 Triumph St Twin 20 CanAm Ryker
14 Honda CB1100 18 Yam XT250 16 Guzzi V7II
17 Yam TW200 12 Triumph Bonnie 02 Sportster 1200S
03 Sportster 883 76 Honda CB750F 75 Honda CB360
70 Yam CT1 72 Yam CT2 72 Yam AT2
70 Honda SL350 70 Honda CL350 67 Honda CL160
67 Honda CB16062 Honda CA110
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2018 09:03 AM by SportsterDoc.)
01-19-2018 08:15 AM
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max Online
Road Warrior

Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 1,545
Joined: Sep 2017
Post: #42
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues
Thanks Cormanus et all, that is encouraging to hear, i try to post as little and minimalistic as i think is required to assist Dave in this case, rather than blabbering on about technology endlessly in order to not pollute the forum.

From a very early age i have been interested in what makes things tick and faultfinding is one of my hobbies, this one interests me because i find it simply unfair to the affected customers who are unable to gather support for their case.

What i try to achieve is to separate the two parts that are responsible for this issue and isolate the one which is the cause of the discomfort on an otherwise immaculate machine.

there have been good efforts made in the past and it is very helpful to read through all the posts several times to sift out the relevant info, that takes more time than your average member is prepared to do, but i copied and pasted most of the info and condense it even more so the essential info is all in a small place.
some of the offered solutions have been varied and many, so that is why i focus on one suspect part so heavily.

lucky for us this part can be eliminated completely by unplugging it, and IF the erratic behaviour of the bike disappears we have found the source of the problem, quite simply.

The trick in proving that is to run the bike for a long enough period WITHOUT the tps to ensure that it HAS lost it's fluctuating behaviour, and the ultimate test is to replace the tps with a new one, and if that fixes the problem for a long time swap it out for the suspect tps and see if the fault returns.

If the issue disappears with the tps unplugged there can be two possibilities;
1 the tps itself or
2 the connection between the tps and the ecm.

if the tps is replaced we will never know which one was the actual problem and it may well return at some stage, remember all of the affected bikes have been running fine and passed inspection in the factory, so something has changed and it is not the software.

Dave, my bike is a 2010 model, the first one to be assembled in japan, i would expect the software to be a different version number from yours, i am assuming that the" limp mode" in your bike ( to allow riding it home with a faulty part ) is of a later date and has more limitations programmed into it to protect the engine , this may be significant in trouble shooting, suppose all the affected bikes have a version of software that is limited to 3000 rpm, that would make identification very easy, but that is only speculation on my part.

Hope this helps; max

sometimes i get lucky, and the more i practice the luckier i getCool
and; It's always something simple......just not always simple to find.
2020 cb1000r chromos red
2010 cb1100 candy red
2006 cb919 hornet black
1977 cb550 k3 1st owner
01-19-2018 12:29 PM
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Dave Offline
High Mileage

San Diego, ca
Posts: 934
Joined: Jan 2014
Post: #43
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues
Hi all, here's my latest update. I really wanted to perform all of the TPS voltage and resistance tests today, and inspect for loose connections, but my 2 hr planned car repair ending up being a 5 hr job:

• Temperature in the low 60’s.
• All sensors connected.
• Initial start – normal approx. 1,400 RPM high/cold idle.
• Idle settles into approx. 1,050 RPM after approximately 4 miles and 5 stop lights –approx. 3 miles of freeway.
• Turn bike off with key, allow to sit approximately 20 minutes. Restart and idle speed = 1,050 RPM.
• Ride approximately 3 miles, 5 stop lights, idle speed remains at 1,050 RPM.
• Turn bike off with key, bike sits approx. 15 minutes.
• Restart bike, 1,050 RPM idle.
• 2 stop lights, approx. ½ mile of freeway, stop at freeway exit and idle = 700 RPM, but will slowly work its way back to 1,050 RPM. 3 more stop lights and exact same 700 to 1,050 RPM idle each time.
• Turn bike off with key. Bike off approx. 15 minutes.
• Disconnect EOT sensor. Note: Disconnecting the EOT sensor when this bike was exhibiting the high (1,500 RPM) idle always cured the high idle problem immediately. Bike has not experienced a high RPM idle condition for over a year.
• Restart bike, idle = 1,050 RPM.
• Ride approx. 5 miles, 8 stop lights. Idle speed = 800 RPM after approx. 1 mile, at each stop light, but steady. Idle will not slowly work its way up to 1,050 RPM like it does with all sensors connected.
• Turn bike off with key. Plug EOT sensor back in. Restart bike. Idle = 1,050 RPM.
• Ride bike approx. 3 miles. After approx. .5 mile, at second stop light 700 RPM idle returns. At fourth, fifth, and sixth stop light the bike stalls, but will restart. Head to local college where I can ride in the parking lot.
• Turn bike off with key. Unplug TPS. Restart, idle = 1,050 RPM. Ride approximately 3 miles around parking lot, stop and go. Idle speed = approx. 800 RPM after first mile, but steady – does not creep back up to 1,050 RPM like it does with all sensors connected. Does not stall.
• Turn bike off with key, plug TPS back in. Restart – idle = 1,050 RPM. Idle speed remained at 1,050 RPM for approx. 3 miles, and 4 stops lights. After 3 miles the 700 RPM and creeping up to 1,050 RPM idle returned.
• Returned home with 700 RPM idle condition. Blipped throttle a few times, and each time it would drop to 700 RPM, and creep back up to 1,050 RPM.
• Put bike away for the day.

In summary: Disconnecting either the EOT sensor or the TPS sensor does not eliminate the low idle problem (disconnecting the EOT sensor did cure the high idle condition this bike had a year ago). Disconnecting either of these sensors does cause a difference in the low idle condition, and that being once the low idle condition is reached, it will not slowly creep back up to a normal, 1,050 RPM idle. Also, with either sensor disconnected the engine seemed more stable, and less reluctant to want to stall, than it does with the sensors connected normally.

Hope this gives some insight to the guys working so diligently to try to solve this. I apologize for lack of video, but (go ahead and laugh) I do not own a smart phone (but my wife does).
(This post was last modified: 01-20-2018 06:58 PM by Dave.)
01-20-2018 06:55 PM
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Houtman Offline
Been There

NC USA
Posts: 4,481
Joined: May 2013
Post: #44
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues
I do not own a smart phone either.
If Warren Buffett can get by with a flip phone than I should be able to do the same .
01-20-2018 07:19 PM
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max Online
Road Warrior

Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 1,545
Joined: Sep 2017
Post: #45
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues
Geez Dave, i was waiting for your update but by the time i came home it had already fallen off the list of new messages, so i just found it just now.

Right, very detailed resume indeed, as usual i read it 4 times just to get it in my head, just a quick remark; if the tps is unplugged the ecm " invents" a new idle setpoint which is higher than 0.5 volts, i have seen this happen on a video and was surprised, ( this is speculation from me but it seems to fit what happens every time the tps is plugged back in ).
When the tps is re- connected it re-learns the faulty voltage and plays up again ( my assumption ).

During all this explaining i must have given you the wrong idea, to be clear;
-------- just do a complete run with the tps unplugged for the length of the entire trip.--------

sofar there are no fluctuations with it unplugged, let's see if that keeps happening, don't worry about where the idle point is as long as it stays in the same place and doesn't change.

Oh just one last thing ; does your bike exceed 3000 rpm with the eot sensor unplugged?

max.

sometimes i get lucky, and the more i practice the luckier i getCool
and; It's always something simple......just not always simple to find.
2020 cb1000r chromos red
2010 cb1100 candy red
2006 cb919 hornet black
1977 cb550 k3 1st owner
01-21-2018 01:33 AM
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Dave Offline
High Mileage

San Diego, ca
Posts: 934
Joined: Jan 2014
Post: #46
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues
Hi Max,

Thanks again for all your support.
-------- just do a complete run with the tps unplugged for the length of the entire trip.--------

Ok, will do. I did ride about 3 miles in the college parking lot with the TPS unplugged, but I will take it for a farther ride if this helps gather more data. I rode in the college parking lot because the engine will not rev past 3,000 RPM (actually not past 2,800 cleanly).

sofar there are no fluctuations with it unplugged, let's see if that keeps happening, don't worry about where the idle point is as long as it stays in the same place and doesn't change.

Oh just one last thing ; does your bike exceed 3000 rpm with the eot sensor unplugged?

The bike will reach normal RPM with the EOT sensor unplugged.

What is hiss?

max.
[/quote]
01-22-2018 06:21 AM
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max Online
Road Warrior

Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 1,545
Joined: Sep 2017
Post: #47
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues
Thanks Dave, we need the longer run data with tps unplugged.

Interesting about the max rpm with eot unplugged, thank you.

HISS is honda's abbreviation for ---Honda Ignition Security System---, it has a chip inside the key handle that is required to be read and recognised correctly by the ecm before the engine will start.
it displays a red led blinking every 2 seconds when the key is switched off for the first 24 hours as a warning to thieves that this bike is protected and is never going to start even if the ecm is replaced because of the protocol required between the instrument cluster, ecm and keylock.
According to what i have read it had a dramatic effect on the number of honda's stolen because the degree of expertise required to defeat the system.
It is, however not installed on the us market but on all imports from other countries, so any overseas ecm expects to see the parts and correct protocol before it even initiates the bike, hence the problem with buying an extra one.

sometimes i get lucky, and the more i practice the luckier i getCool
and; It's always something simple......just not always simple to find.
2020 cb1000r chromos red
2010 cb1100 candy red
2006 cb919 hornet black
1977 cb550 k3 1st owner
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2018 07:36 AM by max.)
01-22-2018 07:13 AM
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Houtman Offline
Been There

NC USA
Posts: 4,481
Joined: May 2013
Post: #48
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues
Does this mean that Americans are more honest as Honda sees no need to have the HISS on their bikes in the USA ?
01-22-2018 07:36 AM
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SportsterDoc Offline
High Mileage

New Mexico
Posts: 1,447
Joined: Nov 2017
Post: #49
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues
(01-22-2018 07:36 AM)Houtman Wrote:  Does this mean that Americans are more honest as Honda sees no need to have the HISS on their bikes in the USA ?

Or maybe the HISS is replaced by a .357?

Drifting back to the subject, once the tests suggested by Max are complete, it would be good to have TPS voltage reads, per Max's video, when the idle is low.

This link is from post one of Max's thread TPS evaluation for ii issues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCALpJRQ...e=youtu.be

More info from Max in post 632 (page 64) of CB1100 idle speed instability problems.

http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread....20&page=64

Meanwhile I am beginning to wonder if high idle is an IACV issue (IACV or IACV connection or crud in the IACV port) and low idle is a TPS issue (TPS or TPS connection), with the problem possibly increased by a vacuum leak.
However, that does not seem to explain vacillation between low idle and high idle...just thinking out loud.

Perhaps the ECM updated program, available outside the USA, may have some compensatory algorithms to deal with such issues?

Meanwhile, it seems that Max's focus on the TPS for low idle is an appropriate direction.

23 Guzzi V7 SE 23 Yam XT250
18 Yam Bolt 22 Triumph St Twin 20 CanAm Ryker
14 Honda CB1100 18 Yam XT250 16 Guzzi V7II
17 Yam TW200 12 Triumph Bonnie 02 Sportster 1200S
03 Sportster 883 76 Honda CB750F 75 Honda CB360
70 Yam CT1 72 Yam CT2 72 Yam AT2
70 Honda SL350 70 Honda CL350 67 Honda CL160
67 Honda CB16062 Honda CA110
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2018 08:29 AM by SportsterDoc.)
01-22-2018 07:59 AM
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SportsterDoc Offline
High Mileage

New Mexico
Posts: 1,447
Joined: Nov 2017
Post: #50
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues
Max and all, something else to ponder:

There are some similarities with my Moto Guzzi V7II experience to Dave's issue(s).

I put 7,000 miles on it in about 7 months, Feb-Sep 2017.

At about 6,000 miles on the odometer, on a ride in the mountains, I pulled in the clutch for a tight U-turn at just over 8,000 feet elevation and the motor died. It would not idle without throttle, even when I returned to base at 2,200 feet.

Problem continued the next day, running errands around the valley.

I then tightened the clamp from the single throttle body and normal idle returned. It was not as loose as the clamps on my CB1100.

A couple weeks later, I rode 300 miles from Las Vegas, NV to Clarkdale, AZ and the motor died, when I pulled in the clutch in Jerome, at 5,000 feet elevation, about 270 miles from home.

That afternoon, I gave a couple grandkids rides around Clarkdale and had to use throttle at idle.

Valve clearance was per factory settings. Did not have a multi-meter with me and the one I gave my son-in-law needed new batteries.

Bike had been hosed off only once, buit thoroughly blow dried.

Leaving Clarkdale at O dark thirty, the idle issue persisted...but when it died, it would immediately restart and would continue to run if slight throttle applied. By the time I got over Mingus Mountain (6,000 feet elevation) to Chino Valley (40 miles), it would idle normally and continued to do so for the entire ride home.

It cruised well at about 85 MPH on Interstate 40 from Ash Fork to Kingman (~90 miles). Normally, I would have traveled Route 66, but thought that if I had issues, it would be best to be on the interstate. Idle was normal the remainder of the trip and after the ride home.

My thoughts at the time were that a poor connection had "re-connected"...perhaps a TPS issue?...but more complicated on the V7II: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=88236.0

As much as I liked the torque, 5.8 gallon fuel capacity, fuel economy and the shaft drive, I was annoyed by the dry clutch rattle, the change of local dealer ownership was a huge negative and poor fueling after warm starts (10+ minute shut down) was very annoying...even after an updated ECM program was installed. Also, I found a few more trails to explore, so I traded it on a new Yamaha XT250.

Many EFI bikes have TPS issues reported on their respective forums.

23 Guzzi V7 SE 23 Yam XT250
18 Yam Bolt 22 Triumph St Twin 20 CanAm Ryker
14 Honda CB1100 18 Yam XT250 16 Guzzi V7II
17 Yam TW200 12 Triumph Bonnie 02 Sportster 1200S
03 Sportster 883 76 Honda CB750F 75 Honda CB360
70 Yam CT1 72 Yam CT2 72 Yam AT2
70 Honda SL350 70 Honda CL350 67 Honda CL160
67 Honda CB16062 Honda CA110
01-22-2018 09:37 AM
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