Harley-Davidson closing Kansas plant

[EmptySea]

From my reading of the circumstances, I'm not sure that we can draw any conclusions about the future of HD much less the future of motorcycling in the United States. I think that HD's announcement of their commitment to bring an electric motorcycle to market in 18 months is a fairly good indicator that, somewhat ironically, they are not going to go quietly away.

[infinite_ideation]

(02-02-2018 06:30 AM)Houtman Wrote:  I personally like the looks of the Indians a lot more than the Harleys.
Also I am not a fan of the image most (not all) Harley riders project.
"loud pipes safes lives" but where is your protective gear to protect yourself ?

I feel similarly. The bikes aren't attractive to me, the brand hasn't done much to appeal to me, and A LOT (not all) of the riders try to project the old school bad a** gangbanger look of a hell's angel rider of the 70s. Granted a lot of riders don't ride like that, but a lot of them do - especially around where I live. It's just not attractive to me, and pushes me away from the brand despite the brands meager attempts to change their target demographics. Granted a lot of people like this look, and that's fine they can do them. The climate though is changing quite rapidly and their market cap is fading, especially with the gradual end of the boomer era.

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(02-02-2018 06:40 AM)EmptySea Wrote:  From my reading of the circumstances, I'm not sure that we can draw any conclusions about the future of HD much less the future of motorcycling in the United States. I think that HD's announcement of their commitment to bring an electric motorcycle to market in 18 months is a fairly good indicator that, somewhat ironically, they are not going to go quietly away.

I don't think it's possible to draw an end conclusion, however you can draw the conclusion that they're downsizing and taking a leap of faith with their new investments to innovate and change their brands appeal. Someone else (on another forum) made a good point that the production of HD bikes currently is highly inefficient, as opposed to other large manufacturers that automate a lot of the construction process. In order to stay competitive, HD will need to improve their build quality for the price their bikes are sold for or decrease the price of their bikes, otherwise adopt new manufacturing standards to build faster, cheaper motorcycles that appeal to a wider audience (hence the electric bike). HD has and will continue to try to cater more towards the rebel riders, however they need to reach a point where someone will strongly consider their product versus [insert any other brand] outside of bespoke brands like Ducati - which HD tried and failed to purchase.

[EmptySea]

I agree, except with "leap of faith". I think, as you state, that this move was a calculated business decision, not necessarily made from desperation, but more from realization that they must be more efficient and innovative in design and production if they are to remain viable.

[infinite_ideation]

(02-02-2018 07:21 AM)EmptySea Wrote:  I agree, except with "leap of faith". I think, as you state, that this move was a calculated business decision, not necessarily made from desperation, but more from realization that they must be more efficient and innovative in design and production if they are to remain viable.

The reason why I guess I call it a leap of faith is because they need to maintain their current base while growing a new base. The transition from old to new can create a lot of conflict with old and new HD riders. You don't want to shun the old and discourage their potential future investments, but you also want to appeal to people like me who like retro/sport heritage bikes but don't like the brand in its current state. If done sloppily it will create brand identity confusion and much like Indian before, struggle to maintain a consistent base and lose on sales and growth. HD is clearly large enough to sustain their business for some time, they just need to make practical decisions. It's not the end of the world for their brand, they just need to be able to compete at the same level as the popular import brands.

edit: By compete against other brands, I mean take full advantage of manufacturing automation yet still offer bespoke options for the classic riders who can afford them.

[LongRanger]

I've never owned a Harley, but I don't understand where these opinions of "poor quality" are coming from, especially from folks who have never owned one. It strikes me as biased and misinformed. There's nothing inherently bad about HD from a quality standpoint, through I appreciate if one doesn't find the styling or image of the bikes to their liking. Lots of folks hate Hondas for the same reason, despite the fact they've never owned one, let alone even ridden one.

[The ferret]

I've had 6 Harleys but the oldest one was 1949 and the newest 1994. I'd own another one, but I'm a standard/sport touring type rider and they just don't make anything that suits me. However if it came down to 2 similar bikes and one was a Honda and the other a Harley, I'd choose the Honda. I've had great service out of all of my Honda products (all 20+ of them)

[VLJ]

LongRanger, the "poor quality" comments regarding Harley stem from decades of...poor quality. In any of the industry studies relating to rates of incident and overall reliability, Harley always ranked at or very near the bottom, in large part because the bikes simply shook the ancillary components to death.

"My motor runs strong. I have X-amount of miles, and she's never given out on me," was the old refrain from the Harley Faithful.

Sure, but how many other parts on your bike failed?

Now, clearly Harley has made great strides in recent years toward modernizing their bikes and making them more reliable. They are no longer anywhere near as shaky and problem-riddled as they were in the Bad Old Days. That being said, they are also still nowhere near as reliable as a Yamaha or Honda.

Not an opinion, nor mere anecdotal evidence. This is a basic statistical fact borne out by annual industry studies of overall reliability.

[peterbaron]

(02-02-2018 09:32 AM)VLJ Wrote:  LongRanger, the "poor quality" comments regarding Harley stem from decades of...poor quality. In any of the industry studies relating to rates of incident and overall reliability, Harley always ranked at or very near the bottom, in large part because the bikes simply shook the ancillary components to death.

"My motor runs strong. I have X-amount of miles, and she's never given out on me," was the old refrain from the Harley Faithful.

Sure, but how many other parts on your bike failed?

Now, clearly Harley has made great strides in recent years toward modernizing their bikes and making them more reliable. They are no longer anywhere near as shaky and problem-riddled as they were in the Bad Old Days. That being said, they are also still nowhere near as reliable as a Yamaha or Honda.

Not an opinion, nor an anecdotal fact. This basic fact is borne out by annual industry studies of overall reliability.

+1

pb

[pdedse]

(02-02-2018 09:32 AM)VLJ Wrote:  ...
Not an opinion, nor mere anecdotal evidence. This is a basic statistical fact borne out by annual industry studies of overall reliability.

Yet at an individual level, anecdotal evidence--particularly if it's one's own--is often what influences the next decision.

I had an electrical gremlin on my '04 Sportster, and possibly on my '14 Standard CB1100. I loved both bikes, but no longer have either...conclusion: I will NOT buy a bike manufactured in 2024.

[infinite_ideation]

(02-02-2018 10:13 AM)pdedse Wrote:  

(02-02-2018 09:32 AM)VLJ Wrote:  ...
Not an opinion, nor mere anecdotal evidence. This is a basic statistical fact borne out by annual industry studies of overall reliability.

Yet at an individual level, anecdotal evidence--particularly if it's one's own--is often what influences the next decision.

I had an electrical gremlin on my '04 Sportster, and possibly on my '14 Standard CB1100. I loved both bikes, but no longer have either...conclusion: I will NOT buy a bike manufactured in 2024.

It's not even anecdotal, here's an article published on Fool with findings from consumer reports (study performed in 2014) based on bikes manf. and sold between 2009-2012. I think that's still recent enough to be relevant as there haven't been significant strides in tech advances since then - just more electronics. Though this could also be due to Harley having a much larger footprint in the US as they account for the largest majority of bikes sold.

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2...y-can.aspx

The statistics implied illustrate that Harley owners (alongside BMW) are three to six times more likely to report an issue than other brands. The good news is the issues were cheap to fix, however it does extrapolate to being more expensive to maintain, and less reliable than the competition. I would be interested to know whether or not there's been a revamp of similar studies over the past couple years.

I agree though - once you experience a problem with a specific product or brand, you may be discouraged from buying from them again. Brands like Yamaha/Honda forged years of dedication to building reliable, low maintenance bikes where-as other brands dedicated years to forging an 'experience'.