Need advice on CB1100RS

[Guth]

My apologies as I thought the subtitles were automatically displayed for everyone. Oops.

VLJ, the sketch that you are referring to wasn't the design brief for the CB1100. That was the sketch that lead to the CB1100's "predecessor", the CB Four concept which was based primarily on the original CB750. Back then the CB1300SF was leading the market in the large-displacement class over in Japan. But Mitsuyoshi Kohama could see that Honda was going to be in trouble as the market over there was shifting in terms of the aging demographic of Japan's riders along with their growing preference for adult bikes (or as some people would say, bikes for us older geezers, lol). As Kohama put it, "the imports would surely kill us". The main reason for the CB Four concept was to gauge the reaction to Kohama's belief that the time was right for Honda to develop a new air-cooled bike to address this need. It turned out that he was right as Harley Davidson had taken over the top sales share for large-displacment motorcycles in Japan by 2003.

To me, the key thing about the CB Four as it relates to the CB1100 was that Kohama used it as a tool to get across what he wanted out of the CB1100. One of the more important side notes about at least one of those CB Four sketches was that it contained three Chinese characters that stood for BEAUTY, CRAFTSMANSHIP, and EASE. These were to be the driving forces behind whatever form the new CB was going to take on. (Honda later created a version of this sketch with Kohama's notes along with the Chinese characters translated into English.) It doesn't matter whether or I'm riding or just looking at my CB1100, I'd say that they definitely nailed it when it comes to these three things in terms of both look and feel.

I have to thank the ferret for turning me on to the book titled "Honda Design, Motorcycle Part 2 1985 ~ 2013". It's a great book and it's obvious that the CB1100 was one of the more notable motorcycle designs for Honda during this period of time given the amount of content they dedicated to the CB. A lot of the information in the book can also be found elsewhere on the web, but the book is great if you really like to geek out over design-related topics like I do.

One of those things that Kohama was looking for when coming up with what whatever the next CB was going to be was that it needed to embody plenty of "Honda-ness" as he put it. This is where he and his team really started to fixate on every little detail of the CB1100, and Kohama was extremely specific about this as it turned out. You can see that the CB Four concept featured a flange-less tank. Some might prefer this look, but it doesn't reflect "Honda-ness". Of course the single most defining bit of "Honda-ness" is the CB1100's centerpiece: the air-cooled, inline four engine. This was also significant as it was something that HD could not compete with when it came to heritage.

The other really big thing with regards to Kohama's approach that I find particularly fascinating was the strong focus on design over styling. He and his team paid a lot of attention to how the bike looked as it sat free of most items like the seat, bodywork, etc.. He stated that items like the front fork angle, the engine mounting position, the frame shape and contours, downtube lines and tire sizes were all extremely important to them. This is where he Mitsuyoshi likes to use the analogy of building a house. In essence, if you don't get the framing right, it won't be a great house after you cover the framing up. And in the case of the CB1100 after it was finished, the goal was to reflect many different eras of the CB's history rather than just one specific model. (This explains why I'll never get my hands on those beautiful headers featured on the 2007 CB1100F concept bike modeled after those the CB400F, lol.)

Mitsuyoshi noted how things like the side covers that fit within the frame were important to him as he wanted a more engineering-based style of design work when it came to the CB1100. People talk about form over function, and vice versa but I simply like to think of Kohama's approach as "functionally beautiful". It should come as no surprise that another story dear to my heart is that while others within Honda wanted to increase the size of the original tank, Kohama wasn't willing to budge on this. The size and shape of the tank were very important to him. Even if Honda had forced his hand, Mitsuyoshi noted that he wouldn't have been willing to change the shape of the tank. Instead he would have been forced to approach the frame and body groups of the team to provide more space to change the tank's bottom plate to increase capacity which was not something he wanted to do either.

Over time this original vision started to lose some of it's definition as decisions were made both from a functional (such as the larger tank, different instrument cluster, etc.) and styling-based (side panels covering the frame) standpoints. I get this, it's just how things usually work with models that stick around for a while. I think the fact that the original design remained intact for as long as it did (five years) says quite a bit about the work that went into it. And while I'm grateful that Mitsuyoshi stuck to his guns when it came to his vision, I can appreciate the fact that the DLX, the EX and the RS all have their place within the history and the folklore of the CB1100. This ultimately provides the joy of ownership to a wider cross-section of people who end up calling themselves CB1100 owners.

Ferret, the most notable thing that the guys in the German video picked up on was that one of the keys to the CB1100's "harmony" are the 18" wheels and tires the bike was designed around (one of those items that Mitsuyoshi noted was like part of the framing in his house analogy). The 17" wheels and tires definitely bring a certain style to the CB1100 that did not exist before, but aren't quite in harmony with the rest of the bike's design. In the case of the Motorad journalists, this extended to the impact it had on the feel of the bike while riding it as well (they preferred the feel of riding with the 18" setup). And the Germans also seemed to have picked up on the fact that EASE does not make for a "sport bike" lol. This strikes me a bit like some SUVs that come with extremely large mag wheels and lower profile tires. It's not really in line with how the vehicle was originally designed or with it's intended use, but some people really dig this look and it makes them happy. And so it goes...

(By the way, as I wrap this up and review the length of this late-night/early-morning post, I'm thinking of you MTC )

[Wisedrum]

(03-01-2018 08:13 PM)The ferret Wrote:  I didn't understand one word in that video. What were they confirming?

If it's that video you can't understand 'cause it's in German, here it's summarized in English as I once did it in another thread:

http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=12144

Wisedrum

[The ferret]

Guth that was probably the most poignant piece I have seen written on this forum. Well done lad , well done

[nhawk7504]

I like the newer '17 CB1100 tank. Or, I like the original 1969 tank. I could be happy on the '13 CB11 or the RS. The shocks are nicer on the RS. It looks sporty which some people will like more. The '13 CB1100 IS "retro" but the tank is 80s retro and that was neither a good design period for cars nor motorcycles in a kind of general sense, to me. If I had the means, and the RS spoke to me emotionally, I would trade for it. I'm not going to ride either like a sport bike and if I want to, I can just buy the Z900. It's all about emotions. Or we could just buy a Ural and call it a day. My original liking of the CB1100 was sitting on it, it felt right. Everything felt in the right place. It has a moto purity, let's say. I'd be happy on the Kaw RS and the CB RS as well. Seat of the pants? I liked the RS when I saw the photos. "Wow, cool."

[Banned]

I can certainly understand that changing the wheels on the RS will affect handling in some way and I certainly appreciate everyone's input but here's the simple truth - doesn't really matter that much to me. I am not a racer, I've never even seen a race track let alone been on one and I ride whatever bike I'm on within the limits of that bike not comparing it to something else.

I don't even know what "heavy" steering is, the extent of my critiquing knowledge is my Buell handles better than my CB which handles better than my Harley. I've never gotten too involved with the technical aspects of riding, I ride for enjoyment - nothing else.

Want to hear something that most of you would consider sacrilegious? I've never looked at a spec sheet prior to buying a bike. My criteria are: 1. Comfort 2. Versatility 3. Fuel range 4. Looks. I still don't know what the hp/tq was on any of the bikes I have owned except for the CB1100 and only because I joined here. I did dyno my Harley in Laconia one summer but that was just because everyone else did, I didn't really care.

The way I see it, any modern motorcycle over 1000cc is capable of carrying my wife and I so why get all wrapped around the axle about which one is more powerful?

[Cormanus]

W/R I can't tell you what a relief it is not to feel alone any more, although I have seen a race track.

[SportsterDoc]

(03-02-2018 04:36 PM)W/R Wrote:  ...I've never gotten too involved with the technical aspects of riding, I ride for enjoyment - nothing else.

...I've never looked at a spec sheet prior to buying a bike. My criteria are: 1. Comfort 2. Versatility 3. Fuel range 4. Looks.

The way I see it, any modern motorcycle over 1000cc is capable of carrying my wife and I...

Very good points. I also appreciate nhawk7504 commenting that "everything felt in the right place". That is a very succinct summary.

I did not buy to have the fastest bike on the block. I do review spec sheets, which seldom answer all my questions, such as lean angle and fuel capacity is important where I ride.

This extract from a 7 Mar 2010 Rideapart article is interesting. The CB is not the fastest, but it is well placed:

Power
Honda CB1100: 87bhp
Triumph Bonneville: 67bhp @ 7,250rpm
Triumph Scrambler: 58bhp @ 6,800rpm
Ducati GT1000: 92bhp @ 8,000rpm
Harley XR1200: 90bhp @ 7,000rpm
BMW R1200R: 109bhp @ 7,500rpm
Moto Guzzi V7: 48bhp @ 6,200rpm
Moto Guzzi Griso 1100: 87bhp @ 7,600rpm
Suzuki TU250: 20bhp @ 8,000rpm
1969 Honda CB750: 69bhp @ 8,000rpm

Torque
Honda CB1100: 68lb/ft
Triumph Bonneville: 51lb/ft@ 5,800rpm
Triumph Scrambler: 50lb/ft @ 4,750rpm
Ducati GT1000: 67lb/ft @ 6,000rpm
Harley XR1200: 74lb/ft @ 3,700rpm
BMW R1200R: 85lb/ft @ 6,000rpm
Moto Guzzi V7: 44lb/ft @ 3,200rpm
Moto Guzzi Griso 1100: 66lb/ft @ 6,400rpm
Suzuki TU250: 15lb/ft @ 5,500rpm
1969 Honda CB750: 44lb/ft @ 7,000rpm

Dry Weight
Honda CB1100: 223kg / 491lbs (est)
Triumph Bonneville: 205kg / 451lbs
Triumph Scrambler: 205kg / 451lbs
Ducati GT1000: 185kg / 407lb
Harley XR1200: 255kg / 562lbs
BMW R1200R: 198kg / 437lbs
Moto Guzzi V7: 182kg / 401lbs
Moto Guzzi Griso 1100: 227kg / 500lbs
Suzuki TU250: 123kg / 271lbs
1969 Honda CB750: 218kg / 481lbs

Power to Weight (bhp:kg)
Honda CB1100: .39:1
Triumph Bonneville: .33:1
Triumph Scrambler: .28:1
Ducati GT1000: .50:1
Harley XR1200: .35:1
BMW R1200R: .55:1
Moto Guzzi V7: .26:1
Moto Guzzi Griso 1100: .38:1
Suzuki TU250: .16:1
1969 Honda CB750: .32:1

Torque to Weight (lb/ft:kg)
Honda CB1100: .30:1
Triumph Bonneville: .25:1
Triumph Scrambler: .25:1
Ducati GT1000: .36:1
Harley XR1200: .29:1
BMW R1200R: .43:1
Moto Guzzi V7: .24:1
Moto Guzzi Griso 1100: .29:1
Suzuki TU250: .12:1
1969 Honda CB750: .20:1

Engine
Honda CB1100: 1,140cc, DOHC, air/oil-cooled, fuel injected inline-four
Triumph Bonneville: 865cc, DOHC, air/oil-cooled, fuel injected
parallel-twin
Triumph Scrambler: 865cc, DOHC, air/oil-cooled, fuel injected, 270°
parallel twin
Ducati GT1000: 992cc, Desmo, air/oil-cooled, fuel injected 90° twin
Harley XR1200: 1202cc, OHV, air/oil-cooled, fuel injected 45° twin
BMW R1200R: 1,170cc, SOHC, air/oil-cooled, fuel injected flat twin
Moto Guzzi V7: 744cc, SOHC, air-cooled, fuel injected, 90° twin
Moto Guzzi Griso 1100: 1064cc, SOHC, air/oil-cooled, fuel injected 90°
twin
Suzuki TU250: 249cc, SOHC, air/oil-cooled, fuel injected single-cylinder
1969 Honda CB750: 736cc, SOHC, Air-Cooled, carbureted inline-four

Tires
Honda CB1100: 18" front and rear, tubeless
Triumph Bonneville: 17" front and rear, tubeless
Triumph Scrambler: 19" front, 17" rear, tubed
Ducati GT1000: 17" front and rear, tubed
Harley XR1200: 18" front, 17" rear, tubeless
BMW R1200R: 17" front and rear, tubeless
Moto Guzzi V7: 18" front, 17" rear, tubed
Moto Guzzi Griso 1100: 17" front and rear, tubeless
Suzuki TU250: 19" front, 18" rear, tubed
1969 Honda CB750: 19" front, 18" rear, tubed

Price
Honda CB1100: $10,500 (est)
Triumph Bonneville: $7,699
Triumph Scrambler: $8,799
Ducati GT1000: $11,495
Harley XR1200: $10,799
BMW R1200R: $12,795
Moto Guzzi V7: $8,490
Moto Guzzi Griso 1100: $13,490
Suzuki TU250: $3,799
1969 Honda CB750: N/A

[Banned]

(03-02-2018 04:56 PM)Cormanus Wrote:  W/R I can't tell you what a relief it is not to feel alone any more, although I have seen a race track.

I thought I was the only one, I'm so glad I found you (if this was a Nicholas Sparks movie we would be running towards each in slow motion with our arms outstretched, perhaps in a mountain meadow)

I've always felt that if you are buying bikes (and cars) based solely off the hp/tq numbers you are missing out on a lot of great bikes.

[nhawk7504]

This web site is very good. It explains both bikes and why, emotionally, you'd choose one vs. the other. I like them both.
http://www.honda.co.uk/motorcycles/range...rview.html