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Installing an 02 sensor eliminator
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aschem Offline
Running Like a Top

S.E. Idaho
Posts: 360
Joined: Nov 2013
Post: #31
RE: Installing an 02 sensor eliminator
(05-07-2016 08:19 AM)EmptySea Wrote:  Oh. To both Guth and Redbirds (and anyone else replying): Are you running the stock ECU?
Stock

13 CB1100
16 Bandit 1250S
08 Buell XB12Xt
05-07-2016 09:23 AM
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Guth Offline
Forum Founder

Portland, OR
Posts: 3,366
Joined: Apr 2013
Post: #32
RE: Installing an 02 sensor eliminator
I installed the O2 Sensor Eliminator almost a year ago. I've encountered no negative effects and am running the stock ECU.

2013 CB1100: Placed deposit on Nov. 12, 2012; Received delivery on April 5, 2013.
05-07-2016 10:17 AM
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redbirds Online
Been There

Patterson, GA, USA
Posts: 3,862
Joined: Jan 2014
Post: #33
RE: Installing an 02 sensor eliminator
(05-07-2016 10:17 AM)Guth Wrote:  I installed the O2 Sensor Eliminator almost a year ago. I've encountered no negative effects and am running the stock ECU.

+1

Philippians 4:8 (NIV)
Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
05-07-2016 10:30 AM
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Ulvetanna Away
Road Warrior

USA
Posts: 1,696
Joined: Apr 2016
Post: #34
RE: Installing an 02 sensor eliminator
(05-07-2016 03:44 AM)Guth Wrote:  Honda's PGM-FI system does not rely on the exhaust side O2 sensor for altitude adjustment. Instead, it does indeed include a altimeter in the form of an atmospheric pressure sensor. The O2 sensor is basically there to lean out the air/fuel ratio as much as possible under certain circumstances in conjunction with the catalytic converter for reduced emissions purposes.

Most fueling adjustments are made on the intake side of things, based on calculations involving other various sensor inputs including intake-port pressure, engine coolant temperature, intake-air temperature and the previously mentioned atmospheric (barometric) pressure.
Where did you get that information? I'll grab my service manual while I wait.

Still and all a war of words; no dyno test, no A/F ratio chart, just assertions. My position is I don't do anything to fueling without a complete assessment, including a complete dyno run.

I haven't modified my bike's engine or drivetrain in any way so I have no concerns about it; the person selling that product ought to be able to establish its safety. It certainly violates Federal and state emissions regulations.

There was a question as to whether one could just unplug the sensor. No. The eliminator fools the ECU into thinking it is still there.

There is a product called a servo buddy that some of us have used to eliminate the exhaust servo valve. You lock the valve into the full open position, unplug the motor from the wiring harness, and plug in the servo buddy. My bike threw a code and ran like crap. So, no, those things don't always work and you don't really know what they are doing unless you do a dyno run.

Just exactly what is the construction and design of the O2 eliminator? What does it do to the ECU?

lotta 10 dollar words but it's scientifically explained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwgy2F0E-30

You watch that video, what the guy says in the last minute or two does not bode well for engine health or emissions.

Essentially, he states that the ECU, if it senses a lean condition for more than three minutes, will then revert from going to a fully rich corrective to a mid-range, default map and lock that in permanently until the sensor is replaced or some other action, such as a reflash or remapping of the Power Commander (if present) is completed.

So all you guys running this 02 Eliminator are running a fixed, midrange fuel map. What is that map? What kind of dyno chart would one attain with it?
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2016 11:02 AM by Ulvetanna.)
05-07-2016 10:53 AM
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Ulvetanna Away
Road Warrior

USA
Posts: 1,696
Joined: Apr 2016
Post: #35
RE: Installing an 02 sensor eliminator
Spent most of the morning actually researching this; in my former career I was directly responsible for maintenance and operations of water treatment and distribution systems, and they are chock full of open and closed-loop feedback systems for flow and chemical feed control. I know how they work; my questions were specific to the CB1100, and fortunately, Honda has provided this superb PDF document describing the theory of operation, function, and troubleshooting.

PGM-FI Theory of Operation, by American Honda

The fueling systems in modern motorcycles, as Honda explains, are fairly complex and my approach is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Because of the ECU, we don't always know just what effect a change will have.

Based on my analysis of Honda's document, I don't believe that the O2 sensor only affects corrective action in a very limited RPM range. It appears that it applies action to maintain the 14.7:1 A/F ratio whenever necessary; yes, mostly at lower RPM because that is where most riders spend the majority of their time, and do most of their on/off throttle.

But if we read the theory of operation of their MotoGP PGM-FI we can see they are well aware that on/off throttle (acceleration/deceleration) also happens at high RPM. When I ride I am always opening/closing the throttle, in minute increments, at engine speeds of around 6,000 RPM. The ECU is looking at throttle butterfly alpha and engine RPM along with the other parameters and the O2 sensor seems to be a part of this mix of factors at higher engine speeds.

If even one individual could have posted the results of a dyno run and A/F chart, I'd have been better convinced that this cheap "fix" was not detrimental in some long-term way, but so far, nothing is doing.

It's interesting to note on some models Honda uses a barometric pressure sensor as well as a knock sensor. I did not see those items indicated in the 2013-14 service manual but they certainly are used on some motorcycles.

What concerns me most about lean conditions is that the CB1100 is air-cooled and as anyone knows, air-cooled engines are much more sensitive to mixture and require at least a bit richer mixture than liquid-cooled engines to stay healthy.

My bike runs very well and is holding up like one would expect a Honda to hold up and I no intention of modifying it beyond the K&N air filter.

I copied this from the PDF document. As I mentioned before, if the ECU does not see an expected value from the component after a time-out, it will go to a fail-safe map. Is that map OK to run all the time? Not according to Honda.

• Oxygen Sensor

Each of these components has a back-up or fail- safe fixed value that allows the vehicle to be ridden to a dealership for service.
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2016 12:15 PM by Ulvetanna.)
05-07-2016 12:14 PM
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Guth Offline
Forum Founder

Portland, OR
Posts: 3,366
Joined: Apr 2013
Post: #36
RE: Installing an 02 sensor eliminator
Ulvetanna,

I pulled the info I shared from Honda's online resources, some of which you've already discovered.

Water systems such as those you were responsible for are surely complex and I can understand how the controls responsible for the functionality of such systems would be similar to the fueling system on an engine. However, my most trusted resource when it comes to issues such as this is my mechanic friend Chris that I mentioned previously who worked for Honda and knows his way around an engine pretty well. His career with Honda was rather notable as he trained with Honda Racing Corporation in Japan and served as a race technician for some very successful campaigns by Miguel Duhamel. Chris is an incredibly fascinating resource to glean motorcycle related information from. I have a hard time imagining that I'll directly encounter anyone else who knows as much about the technical aspects of Honda motorcycles as he does.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm good with my choice.

2013 CB1100: Placed deposit on Nov. 12, 2012; Received delivery on April 5, 2013.
05-07-2016 01:14 PM
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Gumby 1100 Online
Running Like a Top

Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 469
Joined: May 2014
Post: #37
RE: Installing an 02 sensor eliminator
(05-07-2016 12:14 PM)Ulvetanna Wrote:  Each of these components has a back-up or fail- safe fixed value that allows the vehicle to be ridden to a dealership for service.[/i]

True, but the Eliminator Plug is providing a resistance/signal that the ECU wants to see in order NOT to trip a code and put the bike into "limp mode". It prevents the ECU from LEANING the mix (and, on some bikes, retard the timing) so that the A/F ratio is closer to "riding optimum" (Not EPA Optimum).

You seem concerned that the ECU is now going to start leaning the mix!...and how could a dangerously lean condition possibly be considered a fail-safe mode? The CB1100 PCV maps I have seen, which require the use of an Eliminator/Optimizer Plug, have a lot of zeros in the upper rpm ranges and some custom maps are even taking away small amounts of fuel up there...those very maps seem to contradict what you are suggesting and indicate that the Eliminator Plug results in a good basic mapping platform. Sure, you can have the PCV add more fuel at various points for even more performance, but I am satisfied with things as they are for now.

I don't think that I am alone in believing that you may be "fear-mongering" based on a lot of assumptions. All of the improved drive-ability benefits that Eliminator Plug users are experiencing (myself included) are indications that the bike is running slightly richer where it needs to be, which also means cooler...all good things for an air/oil cooled engine. It is also not abruptly shutting off fuel when rolling off the throttle and cornering at low speeds, which it did before the Plug. For me, that makes the bike much smoother and safer...like having a Slipper Clutch.

For a bike that is essentially stock (No PCV or ECU Flash), the light tan colour of my plugs indicate optimum fuel burn, which is an old-school indication that all is safe (Not Too Lean & Not Too Rich). Now, if I were to do some more radical modifications to my intake or exhaust, then, I would definitely take your advice and get a dyno-tuned PCV or ECU flash.

2014 CB1100A (Canadian) #068 (Sold)
2018 Harley-Davidson Road King
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2016 04:19 PM by Gumby 1100.)
05-07-2016 01:30 PM
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EmptySea Offline
Been There

Chicagoland, USA
Posts: 4,877
Joined: Jun 2013
Post: #38
RE: Installing an 02 sensor eliminator
Not sure if it's fear mongering, but at best the gentleman seems to be confusing concern that there could be a problem with evidence that there actually is a problem.

I think it is commendable that he would not make a change to the fueling without a complete assessment, but the absence of a complete assessment is not evidence that the change is dangerous (his word).

Most of the riders who have made this modification on this bike tend to ride with a certain, umm, vigor (similar to how I ride, I think). I know this from reading their posts on other topics. Their real-world results hold a lot of weight in my decision process regarding this mod. It seems to me that, if the potential problems which could result from this mod are as serious as the gentleman alleges, then one of our O2-blocked riders would have already experienced them and would have posted about it. Since I happen to notice an annoying amount of idle pulse since installing my Yosh exhaust (full), I may take them at their world and eschew the dyno testing.

MTC

"Ducks have no regard for the law" -- The Ferret



2013 CB1100 non-abs
2013 CB1100 abs
05-07-2016 03:54 PM
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ujm Offline
Break-In Period

PA
Posts: 8
Joined: Mar 2016
Post: #39
RE: Installing an 02 sensor eliminator
This mod was like night and day for me. One of the best things I ever did to a vehicle for the money. I figured at first the throttle was so twitchy in the city because that's just how it is with a liter bike, and sort of regretted buying the CB. It's completely composed now, and is actually a joy at low speeds combined with the quality shifter and easy to find neutral.

I did notice my check engine comes on rarely, usually at the end of a long commute going up hill almost full throttle. Not sure if it's related. I blocked of the PAIR valve earlier, but I doubt that affects anything. It's never serious though. As soon as I turn the key off and restart the light doesn't come on again until the same commute pattern the next day. It only comes on during the day, not on my night commute home for some reason, but that might be because it's more down hill going home into a slower more trafficked area. I guess it's not happy with the heat and/or air/fuel ratio with long heavy throttle use.
06-18-2016 08:38 AM
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Shinchan Offline
1st Service Completed

Lafayette, Colorado
Posts: 63
Joined: Oct 2015
Post: #40
RE: Installing an 02 sensor eliminator
Just installed mine on my '13, and there is a huuuuuuge difference. Bike used to have the hurky-jerkies at lower rpms, especially when dropping the throttle quickly, as if the fuel was being completely shut off. Now letting off the throttle has a smoother transition from high to low rpms and downshifting/engine braking is definitely smoother. Recommended!

2013 CB1100 #11
(This post was last modified: 07-17-2016 06:29 PM by Shinchan.)
07-17-2016 06:29 PM
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