The CB1100RS: Can it Really Outperform the Standard?

[Ulvetanna]

Along the lines of the Ferret's questioning the competency of the new bits on the RS, I took my 2013 Standard for a nice ride today, with the idea of finding flaws in it that might be improved by the forks, wheels, and suspension of the RS version.

The simple straightforward truth is that, as I mentioned in my little diatribe about the RS last week, I really don't think there will be any improvements and most likely some detrimental effects.

I just spend a tad over 265 miles on two different racetrack over the last couple of weeks on my 2012 GSX-R 750 track bike. Other than removing the mirrors and slightly lower gearing, it's still a stock streetbike. It has the same tire sizes as the CB1100RS, but of course the geometry is much quicker. I've also got an FZ8, with the same tire sizes, and geometry not too far off from the new CB1100RS.

The point is I'm very familiar with the way the 120/70 and 180/55 feel and handle under pretty hard riding conditions on more than one machine.

As one member mentioned, the 180 rear is just drastically large on a bike like the CB1100. We don't need tires that wide on the rear until we get north of 100 horsepower at the rear wheel. The CB is well below that number. My Gixxer puts out about 127 at the rear wheel, the FZ8 about 96. Most dynos put the CB1100 at about 80 hp on a good day. Fat tires slow down the handling and make the ride harsher on the street because of greater rolling resistance over irregularities.

Having just come off the track, and taken the FZ8 for a quick comparison spin immediately before hopping onto the CB1100, I was instantly impressed and pleased with the nearly effortless handling once the bike gets above a fast walking pace.

But the handling remains excellent all the way into the riding envelope. The bike turns quickly, holds its line (even at triple-digit speeds), responds predictably to steering inputs at any speed, and doesn't mind trailbraking into a turn one bit. And it is very, very neutral while handling rough pavement much better than a bike with the wide supersport rubber. It really works like a very overgrown scrambler, going where you point it and responding well to throttle steering.

I took particular note of the fork action; it was very smooth but used a good deal of the fork travel, unlike a stiffly-suspended sportbike. The 18" wheels allow this, because the taller profile doesn't use up so much of the ground clearance. I honestly could not find anything I'd improve about the fork. I like the way it works and don't think I'll change it a bit.

The Ikon shocks are doing their job and I feel the same way about them. Ohlins pieces might give me some additional road feel or control but within the quite narrow performance envelope of this bike, I can't see where there would be any benefit.

The engine is smooth, with a huge torque spread and very predictable power delivery, but the bike is not slow.

The brakes are very good, needing no improvement (I got a good rear brake, albeit a bad battery, apparently).

The conclusion is that I've got to take a pass on the CB1100RS; the fat tires are going to change the handling with absolutely no benefit to performance in the least. The RS makes the same power, the same torque, as the Standard. It can't use the kind of rubber that can be mounted on the 17" wheels. It likely has less cornering clearance; I don't see how it could have more, given the same frame and engine (the engine is really the limiting factor, with that alternator hanging out there in the breeze). That's a problem for my riding style. With the 18's I never touch anything down which is how I like to ride.

I plan to wait until the handlebar assembly for the RS is available and replace the risers and bar from my Standard (it has the CB500 piece) with those from the RS. When I change the bars, I'll have Galfer make me a set of stainless steel brake lines for the front and rear (my bike is non-ABS). It doesn't really need them, but it's an inexpensive upgrade. Other than that, I can't think of anything I'd change about it.

The new RS is a fantastic conversation piece and will surely deliver a really good riding experience, especially for those who've not ridden the standard CB1100. I don't think there will be any issues with the bike at all. But as a current owner of a 2013 Standard I'd be giving up a better streetbike for one that largely replaces function with style (thanks to the Ferret for bringing that up).

However, if Honda had been selling the RS in 2013, I'd have bought it over the Standard with no hesitation and never looked back.

I'm basing my sense of the RS on the fact I already have several bikes with true high-performance chassis and really like the nearly effortless handling of the CB1100 Standard when I choose to ride it.

One more note: the CB500 bars vibrate more than the stock bars, even with the stock bar end weights installed. That's the main reason I want to replace them.

Now we'll have to wait and see who gets one and how they really stack up.

[LongRanger]

My 130 hp K1200RS "only" has a 5" rim and 170/60-17. It handles just fine. BMW offered a 5.5" rim as a factory accessory to allow owners to use a 180/55-17, but nothing I've read claimed it did anything to improve the bike's handling, though it may have increased the GVWR. I think it was more for fashion.

[Ulvetanna]

(10-21-2016 05:51 PM)LongRanger Wrote:  My 130 hp K1200RS "only" has a 5" rim and 170/60-17. It handles just fine. BMW offered a 5.5" rim as a factory accessory to allow owners to use a 180/55-17, but nothing I've read claimed it did anything to improve the bike's handling, though it may have increased the GVWR. I think it was more for fashion.

lol, many bikes of the mid-late 80's had over 100 HP and rims around 4" wide.

I recall my Katana 750, which was a brilliant streetbike, had a 3" front and 4" rear wheel, both 17" diameter. Likewise my several FZR400s, but with a 17"/18" front/rear combo. The CB1100 only makes about as much power as an FZR600 (same 3"/4" front/rear wheels) and weighs a lot more. And the radial tires can easily carry the load and get the power to the ground.

Another plus for me is that the large hoops with the faux-Comstar design are in keeping with the sport heritage role. The Standard really looks like a restoration, it has the look. The RS does not. I like that distinction.

Of course, I may see one once they are on the dealer's floor and won't be able to help myself to helping myself to one. In black, please.

[Dave]

You "never touch anything down"? Really? You did say you replaced the rear shocks, correct? I've got the preload on my stock shocks at the maximum setting and I touch my foot pegs down often. (I weigh 185 lbs). I have grounded-out the kickstand twice, but that was with my wife on the back, and it really scared me. I am not saying that I disagree with your comments about the CB1100RS, but I have learned the limits of my CB1100 dlx, and they are not very high.

[Ulvetanna]

(10-22-2016 08:04 AM)Dave Wrote:  You "never touch anything down"? Really? You did say you replaced the rear shocks, correct? I've got the preload on my stock shocks at the maximum setting and I touch my foot pegs down often. (I weigh 185 lbs). I have grounded-out the kickstand twice, but that was with my wife on the back, and it really scared me. I am not saying that I disagree with your comments about the CB1100RS, but I have learned the limits of my CB1100 dlx, and they are not very high.

Yep, that is exactly it. The limits of the CB1100 chassis are quite low, so 17" race-spec wheels and an aluminum swingarm, fancy forks and shocks, and radially-mounted brake calipers are not going to help that at all. Probably make it worse since the wheels are smaller, as the bike is going to be at least an inch lower.

I run my Ikons at the maximum preload and damping settings which turned out to be about right for me. I weigh about 160 pounds fully geared up, and I'm an "all the gear, all the time" type of rider.

I've scraped footpegs on the CB1100 maybe five or six times in the 9,500 miles I have on my CB1100. That was just learning the bike, in turns I knew, on clean, dry pavement, no oncoming traffic, at slower speeds (less than 50 mph).

I don't like touching metal down on the street, or track, or anywhere. It means something bad is likely to happen and there isn't any more cornering ability left. That's why you were scared. That's a natural reation. I don't push any school over any other, but Keith Code's characterization of the sensation of fear as a "survival reaction" comes to mind. The frame can lever the bike right off the ground and lowside you and your wife in a real quick hurry.

I like to always have at least five degrees of lean angle left for the unexpected. That is true on the racetrack as well; I've got my footpegs on the GSX-R 750 to the highest and rearmost position (they have three available settings) so they never come more than about five degrees from the pavement. Max lean on that bike is 51 degrees with the stock peg position, but I don't think I've gotten past 50 degrees, as I am running DOT street tires, where most of the guys and gals I ride with are running fully race-prepped bikes with slicks. Slicks have lots more edge grip and the rear tire can be run all the way down to 21 pounds, providing a huge contact patch.

There are quite few ways to keep that five-degree reserve, by body position, taking a different line, entering the turn differently, and so on. On the track especially, hanging off the bike is very helpful.
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[CB4ME]

Should Honda make the RS available in the US, we should have more than a few 2013/2014 CB1100 owner switching over to the RS. It will be interesting to read comparison reports.

17" wheels are generally quicker than 18" wheels. Maybe Honda will adjust the frame and suspension geometry to maintain good corning clearance. And if the 180 rear wheel prove problematic, it should be possible to go with a smaller rear. And tire choices will be more numerous.

A few intake and exhaust changes should gain 5 plus HP on top of the 5 HP the RS has over the standard.

I'm playing devils advocate but I think the RS may have the edge, albeit with a few easy mods.

[hb9400]

Bring it because you just never know when something just clicks for you.

[Ulvetanna]

(10-22-2016 12:27 PM)CB4ME Wrote:  Should Honda make the RS available in the US, we should have more than a few 2013/2014 CB1100 owner switching over to the RS. It will be interesting to read comparison reports.

17" wheels are generally quicker than 18" wheels. Maybe Honda will adjust the frame and suspension geometry to maintain good corning clearance. And if the 180 rear wheel prove problematic, it should be possible to go with a smaller rear. And tire choices will be more numerous.

A few intake and exhaust changes should gain 5 plus HP on top of the 5 HP the RS has over the standard.

I'm playing devils advocate but I think the RS may have the edge, albeit with a few easy mods.

The RS will have the edge in sales for certain, I think even over the Triumphs and other sport heritage machines. It's a looker and if it's a first CB1100 for someone, they won't know or care about the differences. I am pretty confident the bike is going to come well-sorted for the new pieces.

But there again, it gets back to whether the CB1100 is really a supersport in any way, and that it is not, in any guise. Squeezing out another 5 HP, with the additional heat generated and expense involved, won't make much difference out in the open, where the guy on a 600 will still effortlessly dust the bike on a straight. The same gains can be made on the current engine.

Those 18's work very well; there are vintage racers flailing the daylights out of bikes on those sizes. A big part of easy turning is having a decent amount trail, which is also leverage. The wide tires and reduction in trail will affect turning, but Honda already indicated they reduced rake and trail to help the bike turn. It's a well-considered package.

I do think this bike will sell very, very well. If I didn't already have one I'd be in the market for it.

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(10-22-2016 08:04 AM)Dave Wrote:  You "never touch anything down"? Really? You did say you replaced the rear shocks, correct? I've got the preload on my stock shocks at the maximum setting and I touch my foot pegs down often. (I weigh 185 lbs). I have grounded-out the kickstand twice, but that was with my wife on the back, and it really scared me. I am not saying that I disagree with your comments about the CB1100RS, but I have learned the limits of my CB1100 dlx, and they are not very high.

I forgot to mention, I replaced my peg feelers with pieces about 1/3 the length of the stock items. Also I removed the centerstand, just in case. Don't use it anyway.

[Wisedrum]

(10-22-2016 12:27 PM)CB4ME Wrote:  Should Honda make the RS.......

A few intake and exhaust changes should gain 5 plus HP on top of the 5 HP the RS has over the standard.

In 2017 this will not be the case in Germany.
Both new CB models have the same engine
with equal 90 HP.

Wisedrum

[Ulvetanna]

(10-22-2016 01:20 PM)Wisedrum Wrote:  

(10-22-2016 12:27 PM)CB4ME Wrote:  Should Honda make the RS.......

A few intake and exhaust changes should gain 5 plus HP on top of the 5 HP the RS has over the standard.

In 2017 this will not be the case in Germany.
Both new CB models have the same engine
with equal 90 HP.

Wisedrum

Right. Power is the same.